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Sin Against The Holy Spirit...
08-18-2011, 03:40 AM
Post: #11
RE: Sin Against The Holy Spirit...
(08-18-2011 12:15 AM)Martinuk Wrote:  
(08-17-2011 10:51 AM)Piranhapoodle Wrote:  ...doing it in a moment of ignorance are simply not doing the same. Also, he's not saying these people will burn in hell, just that this particular sin will not be forgiven.

Further, it's quite a central dogma that people cannot sin when they are forced to do so, or when they are simply ignorant about it.

I don't think I mentioned being forced to deny the Holy Spirit at all in any way ,also like I said I don't believe in any of the bibles dogma .

You're right, you didn't. Garrett Fogerlie mentioned denying the holy spirit while loved ones were being murdered or tortured, but indeed, that may not be the same as being forced. You did mention not being in full control of your thoughts, so my argument that this is not the same as what happens in the text still stands.

It wasn't my intention to imply that you accept any christian dogma. To be clear, we are both discussing a hypothetical problem.

Quote:There are nevertheless many Christian churches who teach this as part of their dogma where they teach not to deny the holy spirit because you will be damned , try googling it and see how seriously people take it all.

Also if I can split hairs for a while, not even the ten commandments were given to us all , they were spoken and therefore applicable to a non-existent wandering tribe at the foot of a non-existent mountain during the stone age, there is no evidence historically or geographically, no archaeology either for these claims,therefore I don't think they apply to me either , but I suppose that's another discussion .

I find it interesting that you say ..."people will not burn in hell"...with this sin, are there other sins you know of that don't carry any punishment or do you not believe in hell fire at all .

Nice to talk with you .

I take your word for it that this idea is present. Dogma's can change, but there's not a lot I can do about it besides discussing this sometimes on christian message boards or on a meeting with christians IRL. However, the overall consensus where I live is already very mild. A solution would be to further institutionalise the religion and create better common dogma's, but I'm not a fan of that.

You imply that one always needs evidence of God to accept certain principles to be good? Shouldn't a good heart be able to recognise good things without God unleashing thunder and fire?

Yes, because I think hell (and heaven) can be more pleasant for some than for others. I know of some verses that support this idea but I don't want to come across as a biblethumping internet preacher.

Thanks, nice to talk to you too.
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08-18-2011, 11:43 AM
Post: #12
RE: Sin Against The Holy Spirit...
(08-18-2011 03:40 AM)Piranhapoodle Wrote:  You imply that one always needs evidence of God to accept certain principles to be good? Shouldn't a good heart be able to recognise good things without God unleashing thunder and fire?

I wasn't implying the need for evidence of god in my post , I was referring to your relating the verse I had quoted about sin against the holy spirit only applying to the Pharisees, because they were the people mentioned in the text ,you implied therefore that the sin only applied to them. That's why I applied the same rule that you had implied to all other commandments , that they would only apply to those they were directed to at the time they are stated .

The lack of evidence I implied was for a mountain called Sinai , there isn't , wasn't one . The whole story is made up. No Physical evidence of the people or the place existing at the time in Egypt or in the desert .
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08-18-2011, 04:23 PM (This post was last modified: 08-18-2011 04:24 PM by Piranhapoodle.)
Post: #13
RE: Sin Against The Holy Spirit...
(08-18-2011 11:43 AM)Martinuk Wrote:  
(08-18-2011 03:40 AM)Piranhapoodle Wrote:  You imply that one always needs evidence of God to accept certain principles to be good? Shouldn't a good heart be able to recognise good things without God unleashing thunder and fire?
I wasn't implying the need for evidence of god in my post , I was referring to your relating the verse I had quoted about sin against the holy spirit only applying to the Pharisees, because they were the people mentioned in the text ,you implied therefore that the sin only applied to them. That's why I applied the same rule that you had implied to all other commandments , that they would only apply to those they were directed to at the time they are stated .

The lack of evidence I implied was for a mountain called Sinai , there isn't , wasn't one . The whole story is made up. No Physical evidence of the people or the place existing at the time in Egypt or in the desert .

Ah right. No my argument wasn't that it only applies to the people that it's spoken to, because it seems too much of a general remark for that. However I was arguing that it applies to people in a similar situation, and that this makes more sense in the whole doctrine. This is also the case, I think, for all other commandments. A rule without context never makes sense, and you can always think of situations that make a rule absurd.

And I agree about the commandments not applying to us. This would just not be possible because they are a summary of a whole number of laws that only made sense or are even only executable in that time and place.

You mean there's no mountain in that whole desert? Would you expect to find evidence in the Egyptian royal records, that tend to downplay or simply ignore any instances of defeat an humiliation of their god-king? I know the written version of the book Exodus dates from much later, but the amount of names and details, plus the honesty of own failures still make it quite a believable source, wouldn't you agree?
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08-18-2011, 11:59 PM (This post was last modified: 08-19-2011 12:07 AM by Martinuk.)
Post: #14
RE: Sin Against The Holy Spirit...
(08-18-2011 04:23 PM)Piranhapoodle Wrote:  ... but the amount of names and details, plus the honesty of own failures still make it quite a believable source, wouldn't you agree?

As a historical document I would place it along side works like the Iliad by Homer ,places real but events fictional , there is a literary value and there are some good stories , as a moral guide I don't think genocide and child abuse should be promoted but I suppose the language used helps to understand Shakespeare .
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08-26-2011, 04:34 AM (This post was last modified: 08-26-2011 04:42 AM by Piranhapoodle.)
Post: #15
RE: Sin Against The Holy Spirit...
(08-18-2011 11:59 PM)Martinuk Wrote:  
(08-18-2011 04:23 PM)Piranhapoodle Wrote:  ... but the amount of names and details, plus the honesty of own failures still make it quite a believable source, wouldn't you agree?

As a historical document I would place it along side works like the Iliad by Homer ,places real but events fictional , there is a literary value and there are some good stories , as a moral guide I don't think genocide and child abuse should be promoted but I suppose the language used helps to understand Shakespeare .

Transferring morals from an eternal being to ourselves like that would be... problematic. In the light of eternity, God may not care all that much about a human life being a few decades longer or shorter. I don't remember people in the bible could use the same attitude.
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