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Sin Against The Holy Spirit...
08-12-2011, 04:22 AM
Post: #1
Sin Against The Holy Spirit...
Where would one stand if in ignorance or in a moment of doubt one was to have doubted the existence or divinity of the Holy Spirit .

Would there be any chance of salvation or is that no longer attainable?

Mark 3:28-30
Matthew 12:30-32
Luke 12:8-10
Hebrews 6:4-8

Quite often we are not in full control of our thoughts and even taking the risk of contemplating this question it seems could put you in the position of doubt.

Is this not actually thought crime ...
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08-12-2011, 09:42 AM
Post: #2
RE: Sin Against The Holy Spirit...
(08-12-2011 04:22 AM)Martinuk Wrote:  Where would one stand if in ignorance or in a moment of doubt one was to have doubted the existence or divinity of the Holy Spirit .

Would there be any chance of salvation or is that no longer attainable?

Mark 3:28-30
Matthew 12:30-32
Luke 12:8-10
Hebrews 6:4-8

Quite often we are not in full control of our thoughts and even taking the risk of contemplating this question it seems could put you in the position of doubt.

Is this not actually thought crime ...


It is exceptions like these that show how capricious the god of the bible would be if he were real. You get forgiven for murder or rape but not for thinking that the holy spirit isnt real, what a joke it makes of the whole thing.
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08-13-2011, 05:08 AM
Post: #3
RE: Sin Against The Holy Spirit...
I was raised with the idea that as long as you accepted God into your heart you were saved, no matter if you renounced him afterwords. This seems so stupid to me know, but when I was 12-14 years old, I remember being so angry that people who have committed horrible crimes, or whatever and renounced God would still be allowed in.

The other way round is just as bad, religious people ask what punishment is there for people who rape, murder, etc. (or what is there that keeps people from doing these things,) if there is no God. Despite the fact that people are generally good, and don't need a cosmic 'security camera' to keep them in line, it seems just as bad that someone could be a child molester, murderer, etc, then just confess on their death bed and end up in the same place as 'good' people.

I didn't look up the versus you quoted, but it reminds me of the, "if your eye shall cause you to sin, pluck it out" type stories that I think are in Mathew.

My personal #1 reason that I don't like religion is because I like knowledge! And Religion suppresses knowledge; not just the knowledge unfortunately, but it suppresses the entire drive to understand.
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08-13-2011, 12:39 PM
Post: #4
RE: Sin Against The Holy Spirit...
(08-13-2011 05:08 AM)Garrett Fogerlie Wrote:  ...I didn't look up the versus you quoted, but it reminds me of the, "if your eye shall cause you to sin, pluck it out" type stories that I think are in Mathew.

I probably should have said in the original post the facts about this one sin.

A sin against the Holt Spirit in the quotes I mentioned is the only sin that, according to the references ,can not be forgiven .

So you can commit many other heinous crimes and be forgiven , but deny the Holy Spirit once and you are damned !!!

..and it's not one obscure reference as you can see , it is repeated.
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08-14-2011, 07:32 AM (This post was last modified: 08-14-2011 07:32 AM by Piranhapoodle.)
Post: #5
RE: Sin Against The Holy Spirit...
(08-13-2011 12:39 PM)Martinuk Wrote:  A sin against the Holt Spirit in the quotes I mentioned is the only sin that, according to the references ,can not be forgiven .

So you can commit many other heinous crimes and be forgiven , but deny the Holy Spirit once and you are damned !!!

..and it's not one obscure reference as you can see , it is repeated.

Forgiveness is unfair to begin with, because through forgiveness someone is not treated in the way he/she deserves. Therefore, it's a bit strange to point at the unfairness of some people not being forgiven for a particular thing.

If the damage of all crimes could be completely undone in an afterlife, it would not be unjust to the victims anymore to forgive heinous crimes.
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08-14-2011, 12:13 PM
Post: #6
RE: Sin Against The Holy Spirit...
(08-13-2011 12:39 PM)Martinuk Wrote:  A sin against the Holt Spirit in the quotes I mentioned is the only sin that, according to the references ,can not be forgiven .

So you can commit many other heinous crimes and be forgiven , but deny the Holy Spirit once and you are damned !!!

..and it's not one obscure reference as you can see , it is repeated.

My bad, I should have noticed that. It seems like I am forgetting a bible verse every day. The blasphemy laws/versus, your question seems so much more relevant now that I put the two together!

Yes, it is outrageous! Hypothetically, you could be chained up and forced to witness your loved ones being murdered (or possibly worse yet, tortured) and during this loose faith in God and/or curse (or possibly just deny) him, and no matter how you lived your life, and however hard you try in the future, nothing you can do will prevent you from going to hell! It doesn't seem like the rules of a caring and just God.

My personal #1 reason that I don't like religion is because I like knowledge! And Religion suppresses knowledge; not just the knowledge unfortunately, but it suppresses the entire drive to understand.
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08-17-2011, 05:34 AM (This post was last modified: 08-17-2011 05:38 AM by Piranhapoodle.)
Post: #7
RE: Sin Against The Holy Spirit...
(08-14-2011 12:13 PM)Garrett Fogerlie Wrote:  Yes, it is outrageous! Hypothetically, you could be chained up and forced to witness your loved ones being murdered (or possibly worse yet, tortured) and during this loose faith in God and/or curse (or possibly just deny) him, and no matter how you lived your life, and however hard you try in the future, nothing you can do will prevent you from going to hell! It doesn't seem like the rules of a caring and just God.

I think you're stretching the meaning of the verse too far. If you look at the context, Jesus said this about people who saw him perform a miracle to heal someone. These people, the Pharisees, had also heard about him performing other miracles for the good of people and knew what good things he was teaching. Knowing and seeing all these things, they decide to accuse Jesus' good work of being demonic and evil to discredit him and keep people away from him.

See Mark 3:30 β€” because they said, β€œHe has an unclean spirit.”

So I guess to be held accountable for this sin, both freedom, evil intent and knowledge about what one is doing are required. Perhaps blasphemy sounds different to us because the church later labelled every curse, bad comment or even criticism on christianity as blasphemy.
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08-17-2011, 10:17 AM
Post: #8
RE: Sin Against The Holy Spirit...
(08-17-2011 05:34 AM)Piranhapoodle Wrote:  I think you're stretching the meaning of the verse too far.

I don't think either myself or Garrett are stretching the meaning ... I and I think I can speak for Garrett too ,are talking about actual dogma which is taught in churches every week to their congregations .
It's quite common to see verses cherry picked out of context and taught as being relevant today and to all.
I don't believe in sin at all in the context as a crime punishable by a god , the fact remains that there are religious folk who do teach this as truth to their flock and frighten their children with stories of damnation .
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08-17-2011, 10:51 AM (This post was last modified: 08-17-2011 10:54 AM by Piranhapoodle.)
Post: #9
RE: Sin Against The Holy Spirit...
(08-17-2011 10:17 AM)Martinuk Wrote:  
(08-17-2011 05:34 AM)Piranhapoodle Wrote:  I think you're stretching the meaning of the verse too far.

I don't think either myself or Garrett are stretching the meaning ... I and I think I can speak for Garrett too ,are talking about actual dogma which is taught in churches every week to their congregations .
It's quite common to see verses cherry picked out of context and taught as being relevant today and to all.
I don't believe in sin at all in the context as a crime punishable by a god , the fact remains that there are religious folk who do teach this as truth to their flock and frighten their children with stories of damnation .

Then you're right about these christians being wrong. Still I do think you're stretching the meaning, even though a number of christians do the same. The verse you note says that Jesus said this because people were saying he was possessed by an evil spirit, and these people were not forced to do so or ignorant of what he did. So, examples of people being forced to deny the Holy Spirit or doing it in a moment of ignorance are simply not doing the same. Also, he's not saying these people will burn in hell, just that this particular sin will not be forgiven.

Further, it's quite a central dogma that people cannot sin when they are forced to do so, or when they are simply ignorant about it.
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08-18-2011, 12:15 AM
Post: #10
RE: Sin Against The Holy Spirit...
(08-17-2011 10:51 AM)Piranhapoodle Wrote:  ...doing it in a moment of ignorance are simply not doing the same. Also, he's not saying these people will burn in hell, just that this particular sin will not be forgiven.

Further, it's quite a central dogma that people cannot sin when they are forced to do so, or when they are simply ignorant about it.

I don't think I mentioned being forced to deny the Holy Spirit at all in any way ,also like I said I don't believe in any of the bibles dogma .

There are nevertheless many Christian churches who teach this as part of their dogma where they teach not to deny the holy spirit because you will be damned , try googling it and see how seriously people take it all.
Also if I can split hairs for a while, not even the ten commandments were given to us all , they were spoken and therefore applicable to a non-existent wandering tribe at the foot of a non-existent mountain during the stone age, there is no evidence historically or geographically, no archaeology either for these claims,therefore I don't think they apply to me either , but I suppose that's another discussion .

I find it interesting that you say ..."people will not burn in hell"...with this sin, are there other sins you know of that don't carry any punishment or do you not believe in hell fire at all .

Nice to talk with you .
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