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Question for the devout
06-26-2011, 09:47 AM (This post was last modified: 06-26-2011 09:49 AM by Opossum9000.)
Post: #1
Information Question for the devout
I've often wondered, not specifically in what someone believes - it is irrelevant, but why?

This question interests me so much because I am mentally incapable of believing in a god. I have been asked why I cannot believe and I have a pretty straight forward answer?!? Think of the universe and all it's majesty, think of it in terms of the micro-sphere to the macro-sphere; everything we are, everything, absolutely everything is made of the same stuff? Tiny particles held together by a mutual attraction - energy.

At the macro level we expand outward ultimately to the edges of reality itself! How can there be room for theocratic belief with the knowledge of the vastness of space? Imagine, if you can, there are stars so distant that our solar system will be but a dusty expanse long before its light reaches them. Wonders within this expanse humanity itself will never be able to witness?!? That is why I cannot believe.

How can we be so arrogant as to apply the limited and child-like belief in a "god" to something with the grandure and scale as the universe?

So, if you really, really look at the universe and try, (I say try because by no means am I a physicist so all I can do is try), to grasp all of it; truly open up to see atoms and space and how they all interact from the micro-sphere to the macro-sphere then, I ask, how can one believe in the limitations of a religious faith?

I truly cannot imagine limiting myself to the such narrow confines as religion demands? And so I think it is fair to ask, “how can you?” Or, “why do you believe?”

Now, I refuse to accept the common answers, “I believe because it makes me feel good” or “spirituality gives me hope”, blah, blah blah’; that is nothing else but the placebo effect – god and spirituality do not make you feel good, you fostering the thoughts in your head make yourself feel good – a placebo!?! In that vein, you’d be no different than any junkie? Drugs do the same thing?

No, to answer this question, one must reflect on themselves and be able to ask themselves, “Why do I believe”, not what does that believe get me, (the placebo-effect), but why.

And that is the question I ask and the answer I seek.
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08-17-2011, 07:41 AM (This post was last modified: 08-17-2011 07:59 AM by Piranhapoodle.)
Post: #2
RE: Question for the devout
[Image: H1rO7.jpg]

No seriously, just because something is small doesn't necessary mean it's not important.

I believe in a god because it fits what I see around me and what my other opinions and beliefs are. For instance, I strongly believe that humans are ought to live life in a certain way and the world ought not to be as miserable as it is now in many places. If there's no god, there's no "ought".
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08-18-2011, 06:21 PM
Post: #3
RE: Question for the devout
Let me start by saying, I appreciate the post and the opportunity for discourse, to understand ones fellow humans is to better accept them. And I apologize for the long post, I do tend to blather on, and now to the meat of it:

(08-17-2011 07:41 AM)Piranhapoodle Wrote:  I believe in a god because it fits what I see around me and what my other opinions and beliefs are.

hmmm...interesting, I find that a fallacious argument; as a personal opinion I take it on face value and may not challange the utterance as to do so is the same as declaring one a lier and I am sure you mean it as a statement of truth. However, I can challange the decleration made by the statement in that what I see around me in no way fits any [inferred] religious beliefs. Many in religious sects believe because they were taught to, ingrained at birth and early childhood the beliefs become intrinsic to the mind at an age too early to question the validity of what they are presented and as such are set in stone. However, if we humans are to rise above the boundries of our small blue pearl here, we [must] question the world around us, we [must] seek to understand everything from what makes the petals of a red rose red to what is at the edge of our universe. Is it not too easy to accept the answer "god made the petals red? " I would rather study the rose and accept that the color stands out and helps to attract the attention of creatures that facilitate the rose pollinating with other rose plants. In neither statement is the beauty of the rose any less diminished, but in mine not only is the rose a symbol of beauty but an intricate part of nature as well only adding to it's majesty. In the end, religion and acceptance of religious doctrine seems [to me] only to searve as an quick answer that encourages us to not question.

(08-17-2011 07:41 AM)Piranhapoodle Wrote:  I strongly believe that humans are ought to live life in a certain way and the world ought not to be as miserable as it is now in many places. If there's no god, there's no "ought"

Now, that statement I just outright challange! 'If there's no god, there's no "ought" '? Really? There are tribs in the world, (South Amarica and New Guinea), that have little to no contact with the outside world, they have no concept of god, Jesus or Cristianity, Hinduism, Mulsim, etc., and yet ... they live godless as they are more co-operatively than almost every civilized society. So, I ask, how can they survive? For them there is no god but lots of "ought"? Religious belief absolutely is [not] the cornerstone of moraity; morility is the concious decision and effort of a collective to cooperatively cohabitate for the betterment of all.

I believe religion is the result of the early human mind filling in the blanks, so-to-speak; early peoples at the dawn of civilization were incapable of comprehending why events happened around them, the best they could do was apply a moniker to those events, that became belief and eventually organized religion. As the concept grew it was a convenient and easy answer for the masses that even to this day is accepted but provides no real insight. So, I say, if a red rose is red because god made it so, then a jogger mauled by an animal on a path was mauled because god made it so! And why would anyone want to supplicate before a being that so callously disposes of human life?
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08-19-2011, 05:01 AM (This post was last modified: 08-19-2011 05:23 AM by Piranhapoodle.)
Post: #4
RE: Question for the devout
(08-18-2011 06:21 PM)Opossum9000 Wrote:  Let me start by saying, I appreciate the post and the opportunity for discourse, to understand ones fellow humans is to better accept them. And I apologize for the long post, I do tend to blather on, and now to the meat of it:

(08-17-2011 07:41 AM)Piranhapoodle Wrote:  I believe in a god because it fits what I see around me and what my other opinions and beliefs are.

hmmm...interesting, I find that a fallacious argument; as a personal opinion I take it on face value and may not challange the utterance as to do so is the same as declaring one a lier and I am sure you mean it as a statement of truth. However, I can challange the decleration made by the statement in that what I see around me in no way fits any [inferred] religious beliefs. Many in religious sects believe because they were taught to, ingrained at birth and early childhood the beliefs become intrinsic to the mind at an age too early to question the validity of what they are presented and as such are set in stone. However, if we humans are to rise above the boundries of our small blue pearl here, we [must] question the world around us, we [must] seek to understand everything from what makes the petals of a red rose red to what is at the edge of our universe. Is it not too easy to accept the answer "god made the petals red? " I would rather study the rose and accept that the color stands out and helps to attract the attention of creatures that facilitate the rose pollinating with other rose plants. In neither statement is the beauty of the rose any less diminished, but in mine not only is the rose a symbol of beauty but an intricate part of nature as well only adding to it's majesty. In the end, religion and acceptance of religious doctrine seems [to me] only to searve as an quick answer that encourages us to not question.

You don't really challenge my statement by saying that it does not fit with your own personal world view. I agree with you that observations ought to be explained in a way that is most useful to predict variations and other observations. But my argument was that my believe also depends on my highly subjective opinions. That yours are different is fine. I can never convince you with logic or evidence if I feel that, say, your ethics are wrong.

Quote:
(08-17-2011 07:41 AM)Piranhapoodle Wrote:  I strongly believe that humans are ought to live life in a certain way and the world ought not to be as miserable as it is now in many places. If there's no god, there's no "ought"

Now, that statement I just outright challange! 'If there's no god, there's no "ought" '? Really? There are tribs in the world, (South Amarica and New Guinea), that have little to no contact with the outside world, they have no concept of god, Jesus or Cristianity, Hinduism, Mulsim, etc., and yet ... they live godless as they are more co-operatively than almost every civilized society. So, I ask, how can they survive? For them there is no god but lots of "ought"? Religious belief absolutely is [not] the cornerstone of moraity; morility is the concious decision and effort of a collective to cooperatively cohabitate for the betterment of all.

True, it's a challenge because this statement here is a pure logical one and thus applies to all others who start with the same premises. Whether these tribes you mention thrive or not, they do so with incorrect logic if they believe things ought to go in a certain way. My personal preference is that I do not want to live with incorrect logic like that. Or like Luther supposedly said: "Here I stand. I can do no other".

To clarify: with "ought" I mean statements like: "People ought not to murder one an other." "Parents ought not to abuse their children." "Human tribes ought to prosper and live co-operatively." If there is no god, there is no certain way at all in which thing ought to be, because the universe would have no purpose. Things could be in any kind of way and we all would have our own personal opinions on whether this is good or bad. However, only if things were created, there exists the possibility that the creator created with a certain intention, and that things in the universe have a purpose.
Now the subjective part, I personally believe strongly that some things are really good and other things are really bad, and not dependent on my whims, on my culture, on human progress or on what makes me feel happy. So therefore, I believe in a god.
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