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Proof ...Definition
07-30-2011, 11:57 PM (This post was last modified: 07-31-2011 12:15 AM by Garrett Fogerlie.)
Post: #11
RE: Proof ...Definition
(07-17-2011 06:50 AM)fxmikey Wrote:  I don't know why the new atheists waste their time mind you if all they consider themselves to be is star dust in a temporary configuration. Now i don't think i am wasting my time because i believe there is purpose in life if one is able to get off their high horse and search for it.

We (myself and the majority of Atheists I know) use our time to try to make life better for ourselves and others. To promote knowledge and understanding in the hope that human kind will get over this stone age, religious fueled desire to see the world end. That there will hopefully be a future for our children and one where they don't have to live with the fear that they may be harmed for something as meaningless as not sharing another's viewpoint.

I spend my finite life, the only life I know for certain that I get, trying to help people understand how amazing physics is, how immense the universe is, how amazing and rare life is. I hope to inspire people, help them imagine and advance what humanity can become! To help them stop living off the hopes and dreams of some stone age people and realize how much more there is to life, and how much better they can make life for others!

The meaning of life is what you make it, there is no necessity for it to be predefined. As for my meaning, when I was religious I did volunteer work to help people and preach to them, in the hope that they would not be tortured for all eternity and that God wouldn't torture me for an eternity because I miss-took some section of his vague book. The only difference now, is that I help people in the hope that they may help someone else, and the cycle may repeat. While my life will be finite, society isn't and I do my best to make it better not just for myself but for the billions and billions of people coming after me!

My personal #1 reason that I don't like religion is because I like knowledge! And Religion suppresses knowledge; not just the knowledge unfortunately, but it suppresses the entire drive to understand.
http://www.EvilTheists.com
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07-31-2011, 08:09 AM
Post: #12
RE: Proof ...Definition
Welcome back! Wondered where you disappeared to!

Well that was the most relaxed I have heard you speak for a while! And we are all entitled to our own views. I posted my views on here originally because on your twitter page it invited people from all walks of life to post their views on whatever, including religion. What i can't understand is why atheists get so wound up and abusive when the theist view is submitted. Mr Corky of late is another fine example of these new age aggressive atheists. Surely we should all be grown up enough to have an adult discussion!

Example - Is it reasonable to assume that the Silver Maple tree that produces helicopter type blades shows that it has design and a thinking mind behind it. In my view yes, but that shouldn't get someone like Mr Corky all hot and bothered and abusive. This sort of stuff shows to me that he does not have much faith in his own belief!

Anyway i shall move on.

Garrett Fogerlie Wrote:The meaning of life is what you make it, there is no necessity for it to be predefined. As for my meaning, when I was religious I did volunteer work to help people and preach to them, in the hope that they would not be tortured for all eternity and that God wouldn't torture me for an eternity because I miss-took some section of his vague book.

I don't believe in Eternal torture. It is unfortunately a total misunderstanding of the Bible. Even I could't believe that a loving God would punish the wicked man for all ETERNITY! Now that is a religion and teaching of fear and is definitely not Biblical teaching.

Just a little to add why i believe in a creator and that the only true creator is mentioned in the Bible.

A Brief look at the Bible

The ancient Hebrews asserted uniquely of all religions that God made the universe out of nothing. Incidentally the idea that God, or gods made the universe is a very old idea but in every other religion God or gods fashioned the universe out of some other stuff. The Hebrews said no, there was nothing and then there was a universe. I would like to suggest that modern science proved this to be 100% correct. As a direct consequece of the big bang, not only did the universe have a beginning, not only did all the matter have a beginning but space and time also had a beginning in other words first there was nothing , no space, no time and then there was a universe based on space and time. Suddenly the Christian concept of eternity for God being outside of space and time which for centuries was scientifically unitelligble is now not only coherent but right in along side the most cutting edge discoveries in modern physics and modern astronomy. The ancient Hebrews and the old testament predicts that the people of Israel after being dispersed would return, there would be a re-uniting of the state of Israel. Until the 1940’s this was a possibility so preposterous that if someone had actually suggested it they would meet with derisive laughter and yet this prophecy has actually happened just as the Bible has said it would.

The old writings of the Hebrews and the prophecy of Israel returning to their land are now shown to be correct.
Take a look at this web-site for further reading of this prophecy
http://www.bibletruth.org.au/prophecy/israel.php

Countless other verses that talk about the universe being finite in size, that light travels in a path, the springs and valleys of the deep, the free floating Earth in Space, The hydrological cycle. The Hebrew writers were spot on with current scientific thinking. I can deal with each of these sections if interested.

A Brief look at science and current Scientific thinking

Stephen Hawkins wrote in his book the Grand Design - Our universe with it’s laws appear to have a design that is both tailor made to support us and if we are to exist leaves little room for alteration. That is not easily explained and raises the natural question why it is that way. The discovery of the relatively recently fine tuning of so many of the laws of nature could leave some of us back to the old idea that this grand design is the work of some grand designer.

The Bible actually says that is the case that the invisible things of God (Romans Chap 1) are clearly seen by the things that are made and the invisible thing, the existence of the creator or designer is clearly inferred by the existence of the design.

The mystery of the cell

An example the primordial cell. In Franklin heralds book, the way of the cell, he describes the cell as a kind of super computer. Even Richard Dawkins describes the cell as a kind of digital computer.
Now the cell can’t. have evolved because evolution presupposes the cell. Evolution requires a cell that already has the built in capacity to reproduce itself.

So how did we get a cell. The very idea that random molecules in a warm pond through a bolt of lightening assembled a cell would be akin to saying a bolt of lightening in a warm pond could assemble an automobile or a skyscraper which is of course preposterous. Richard Dawkins knows it’s preposterous and therefore when asked how did we get life originally he says well maybe aliens brought it from another planet. It’s ridiculous but the best explanation he could come up with other than intelligent design.

Evolution raises further puzzles. Evolution relies on the universe structured in a certain way. Evolution relies on a sun that’s 8 light minutes away. Evolution depends on the constants of nature. The universe has hundreds of constants and scientists have asked what if one of these constants were changed (on which evolution depends) a fraction, what if the speed of light were a little slower or faster. This question is addresses by Stephen Hawkin in his book a brief history of time. He says if you change these constants of nature at all e.g the rate of expansion of the universe not 10% or 1% but 1 part in a hundred thousand million million we would have no universe and we would have no life.

In other words our existence is dependent on the fine tuning of a set of constants in nature. We are not talking about just here on Earth but the entire universe.
This argument which is sometimes called the anthropic principle of the fine tuned universe. The has put modern atheism on the complete defensive.

Evolution raises further puzzles. Evolution relies on the universe structured in a certain way. Evolution relies on a sun that’s 8 light minutes away. Evolution depends on the constants of nature. The universe has hundreds of constants and scientists have asked what if one of these constants were changed (on which evolution depends) a fraction, what if the speed of light were a little slower or faster. This question is addresses by Stephen Hawkin in his book a brief history of time. He says if you change these constants of nature at all e.g the rate of expansion of the universe not 10% or 1% but 1 part in a hundred thousand million million we would have no universe and we would have no life.

In other words our existence is dependent on the fine tuning of a set of constants in nature. We are not talking about just here on Earth but the entire universe.
This argument which is sometimes called the anthropic principle of the fine tuned universe. The has put modern atheism on the complete defensive.

Because of the latest developments in science they now had to make the presumption that this universe is perhaps one of a number of infinite universes, each one being slightly different and that there are so many universes that by chance one of them will be just right for life and that happens to be the one we are on.
So you take away the improbabllity of things being just right on earth by chance by saying there are infinite number of universes out there that are not just right.

So in order to explain away the existence of a designer you have to invent 10 to power of 50 other universes. That is an amazing step and creationists are the ones who are said to be gullible! Because these other universes can’t be seen or touched and there is no way of knowing that they are there.
So the answer of modern science is that our universe seems to be one of many, each one with different roles. The multiverse theory. This is an extreme escape mechanism for getting out of the fact that our universe is just right for life.

Because of the latest developments in science they now had to make the presumption that this universe is perhaps one of a number of infinite universes, each one being slightly different and that there are so many universes that by chance one of them will be just right for life and that happens to be the one we are on.
So you take away the improbabllity of things being just right on earth by chance by saying there are infinite number of universes out there that are not just right.

So in order to explain away the existence of a designer you have to invent 10 to power of 50 other universes. That is an amazing step and creationists are the ones who are said to be gullible! Because these other universes can’t be seen or touched and there is no way of knowing that they are there.
So the answer of modern science is that our universe seems to be one of many, each one with different roles. The multiverse theory. This is an extreme escape mechanism for getting out of the fact that our universe is just right for life.

Because of the latest developments in science they now had to make the presumption that this universe is perhaps one of a number of infinite universes, each one being slightly different and that there are so many universes that by chance one of them will be just right for life and that happens to be the one we are on.
So you take away the improbabllity of things being just right on earth by chance by saying there are infinite number of universes out there that are not just right.

So in order to explain away the existence of a designer you have to invent 10 to power of 50 other universes. That is an amazing step and creationists are the ones who are said to be gullible! Because these other universes can’t be seen or touched and there is no way of knowing that they are there.
So the answer of modern science is that our universe seems to be one of many, each one with different roles. The multiverse theory. This is an extreme escape mechanism for getting out of the fact that our universe is just right for life.

Physicists now say that the universe does look as if it was designed to support life.
Isiah ch. 45 That god created the heavens and earth not in vain. He created it to be inhabited.
Anthony Flew- World’s leading atheist philosopher who in later years changed his mind to the dismay of the atheists that he had generated over the decades.
The reason that he came to the conclusion that there was a God – Nature obeys laws, the origin of organized life can’t be explained by current science and the first cause has not been done away with.

Paul Dearack says – God is a mathematician of very high order. In other words the universe is designed according to mathematical principles. Why should that be. There is no reason within the laws of nature why they should be that way.

Albert Einstein – The most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it is comprehensible. As Albert Einstein was developing his theories he knew or sensed he was getting closer to the truth from the elegance of his mathematical formulas and in the end the truth had a beauty to it in mathematical terms. In other words he was studying the mind of God

George ward an evolutionist – We choose to believe the impossible that life arose spontaneously by chance. It is an act of faith which conveniently removes the obligation to a creator, therefore it is an attractive act of faith and most people have not a clue what evolution teaches nevermind the evidence for and against it and yet hold tenaciously onto it because it is a comfort blanket against the existence of God. It is the spirit of the age and it is just the minority that are willing to challenge that set of beliefs.

In Richard Dawkins book the blind watchmaker, he says that biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for purpose. Isn’t that interesting, the whole of the endevour of science is essentially to explain away the need for a designer!

What is Science but a effort to excavate intelligence out of nature. The reason why we need Newton and Einstein is because intelligence is hidden in nature.
So if nature is an embodiment, a network of intelligent systems isn’t it the most reasonable explanation that intelligence put it there. If we need intelligence to get it out then how did it get there in the first place!

Mike
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07-31-2011, 11:22 AM (This post was last modified: 07-31-2011 11:27 AM by Corky.)
Post: #13
RE: Proof ...Definition
(07-31-2011 08:09 AM)fxmikey Wrote:  Welcome back! Wondered where you disappeared to!

Well that was the most relaxed I have heard you speak for a while! And we are all entitled to our own views. I posted my views on here originally because on your twitter page it invited people from all walks of life to post their views on whatever, including religion. What i can't understand is why atheists get so wound up and abusive when the theist view is submitted. Mr Corky of late is another fine example of these new age aggressive atheists. Surely we should all be grown up enough to have an adult discussion!

Example - Is it reasonable to assume that the Silver Maple tree that produces helicopter type blades shows that it has design and a thinking mind behind it. In my view yes, but that shouldn't get someone like Mr Corky all hot and bothered and abusive. This sort of stuff shows to me that he does not have much faith in his own belief!
Do you still not know the difference between "belief" and "lack of belief"? Your argument about the maple tree is from incredulity. In other words, you don't see how that could have evolved, so you think it was created just as you see it today. You are forgetting that maple trees were not the first trees in the fossil record. The first trees were more like our pine and fir trees - oh, I'm sorry, I keep forgetting that you never studied biology in high school...

Quote:Anyway i shall move on.

Quote:
Garrett Fogerlie Wrote:The meaning of life is what you make it, there is no necessity for it to be predefined. As for my meaning, when I was religious I did volunteer work to help people and preach to them, in the hope that they would not be tortured for all eternity and that God wouldn't torture me for an eternity because I miss-took some section of his vague book.

I don't believe in Eternal torture. It is unfortunately a total misunderstanding of the Bible. Even I could't believe that a loving God would punish the wicked man for all ETERNITY! Now that is a religion and teaching of fear and is definitely not Biblical teaching.
Finally something I agree with. There is no eternal hell-fire in the bible, it just makes it sound like there is (what's the difference?) a lake of fire burning with brimstone that people get tossed into to burn them to ashes so that they will be ashes under the soles of the saint's feet - nice.

So what you believe in is annihilation of the wicked and the wicked are defined as anyone other than Christadelphians and a few other people who may know "the truth" - right? And we both know how "clear and concise" the bible is, right? So, it would be impossible for people to get it wrong, and no matter how sincere or how good that person was, they would have to be annihilated because they just didn't get it just right - right?

Sure, the bible doesn't teach eternal torment or immortal souls or the trinity - big deal, the fact remains that it is all based on something for which there is no evidence.

You mentioned the return of the Jews to Palestine. It may surprise you to learn that there have always been Jews in Palestine and never has been a time when there weren't any Jews in Palestine. Do you know where the Jerusalem Talmud was written in the 4th and 5th century? You may guess that it was written in Jerusalem by Jews and you would be right. So, why and how do you think that the Jews had to return to a place that they have never left?

Faith is disdain for evidence, dismissal of reason, denial of logic, rejection of reality, contempt for truth.
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08-01-2011, 01:19 AM
Post: #14
RE: Proof ...Definition
By the way it was the state of Israel being formed again and not a few Jews living in their land!
http://www.bibletruth.org.au/prophecy/israel.php You might want to read to help you understand.

Also Christadelphians do not believe that they are the only ones to be save, that would be a wrong thing to say. If anyone has posted that on the internet then they certainly have that wrong.

I could say the same thing to you - Your argument about the maple tree is from incredulity. In other words, you don't see how it could have been designed, so you think it must have evolved. Yet you know nothing of this and if you can show that this tree came to be by step by step evolution i would like to see the evidence.
It's just a play of words.

So you might want to think again before you write anymore messages like a 5 year old as mentioned previously - quote "oh, i'm sorry, I keep forgetting that you never studied biology in high school"
You know nothing of my education and as said comments like that add nothing to the debate and are of a child like mind!

Don't waste your time or mine by replying to my posts again unless you have anything constructive to say with perhaps some sort of evidence to strengthen your argument. You think you know it all - It is clear that you don't and it is also clear that you don't read my posts fully to understand it's content!
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08-01-2011, 09:31 AM
Post: #15
RE: Proof ...Definition
(08-01-2011 01:19 AM)fxmikey Wrote:  By the way it was the state of Israel being formed again and not a few Jews living in their land!
http://www.bibletruth.org.au/prophecy/israel.php You might want to read to help you understand.

If you want to understand it better, ex-christadelphian, John Bedson, explains it better than I do.
http://ex-christadelphian.blogspot.com/2...phecy.html

Quote:Also Christadelphians do not believe that they are the only ones to be save, that would be a wrong thing to say. If anyone has posted that on the internet then they certainly have that wrong.

Perhaps you didn't know that I am an ex-christadelphian? I know what CDs believe about being "in the truth" and all that rot. I even still have a copy of the old "Christendom Astray" by Robert Roberts - the one with the chapter in it that has since been removed because of it being such an embarrassment to you more recent believers in John Thomas's theories. About the only other people besides Christadelphians to be saved are maybe a few others who believe the same as you do - like the Church of God, Abrahamic Faith. What you don't know is that all of the ideas of the founder, John Thomas, came from John Epps. I would advise that you give this article in Wikipedia a good read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Epps

Quote:I could say the same thing to you - Your argument about the maple tree is from incredulity. In other words, you don't see how it could have been designed, so you think it must have evolved. Yet you know nothing of this and if you can show that this tree came to be by step by step evolution i would like to see the evidence.
It's just a play of words.

You could see the evidence for evolution if you would look at it instead of living in denial. When genetics proved, just a few years ago, the common descent of all living things on the planet - that was the final nail in the coffin of creationism and evolution is now even accepted by the more enlightened of Christadelphians. Have a talk with Ken Gilmore or Jonathan Burke (Fortigurn) on the Christadelphian "Bible Truth Discussion Forum". http://www.btdf.org/forums/

Quote:So you might want to think again before you write anymore messages like a 5 year old as mentioned previously - quote "oh, i'm sorry, I keep forgetting that you never studied biology in high school"
You know nothing of my education and as said comments like that add nothing to the debate and are of a child like mind!

Don't waste your time or mine by replying to my posts again unless you have anything constructive to say with perhaps some sort of evidence to strengthen your argument. You think you know it all - It is clear that you don't and it is also clear that you don't read my posts fully to understand it's content!

I'll ignore your weak attempt at ad hominem to cover your ignorance of scientific facts and advise you to spent some time at the "Talk Origins" evolution website. You can start with this page: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html

As far as "the debate" - there is no debate, the theory of evolution is a proven scientific fact and has been for quite a while. If other Christadelphians can accept it and be "theistic evolutionists" (like Ken Gilmore and Jonathan Burke) so can you... and welcome to the future. Or, you can remain in ignorance, it's totally up to you.

There is another choice, and the one I prefer, you can quit believing in the nonsense of the bible altogether and realize that the end of the world and the return of Jesus was simply a failed prophecy that failed almost 2,000 years ago.

Faith is disdain for evidence, dismissal of reason, denial of logic, rejection of reality, contempt for truth.
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08-05-2011, 03:54 PM
Post: #16
RE: Proof ...Definition
Corky Wrote:If you want to understand it better, ex-christadelphian, John Bedson, explains it better than I do.
http://ex-christadelphian.blogspot.com/2...phecy.html

I printed this off and read through it a couple of times.
First of all I want to mention that this sort of information is scraping the barrel to try and refute the fact of Bible Prophecy of the Jews returning to their land and setting up the state of Israel. I will show you that it adds absolutely nothing to the prophecy I mentioned. I will try and be as brief as I can.

1/ I think the guy obviously has a serious hang up about his life as a Christadelphian, thus the Christian life in general. This happens in all walks of life. The cares of this world take over again which was something that happened to myself but thank God that he has brought me back to a way of life that has hope and meaning. There is a verse for this:
The Parable of the sower - Matthew 13 v 3-9

2/ The guy seems to have a serious hang up about John Thomas (as do you!), there seems to be a deep seated bitterness about him, I can almost see the fire pouring out of his nostrils. The only reason that I can think of as to why such hatred is that he detests the Christian life now because life is too attractive and he has to find a way of belittling the great man that studied the Bible for what it is and set the ball rolling for true Christian study!

3/ The guy contradicts himself - He mentions that John Thomas performed a Tommy Cooper trick in that he was lucky and got this one prophecy right. Then he goes on to say that NO! he didn't really get this prophecy right. He then mentions that he got part of it right and finally mentions that John Thomas got lucky with this prophecy in getting in right. He also mentions that this great prophecy was pure coincidence.
Just follow that and you can see that this guy is talking absolute nonsense!

This is what he says near the end:
"He once got lucky; but it is time that we realised that the Christadelphians have nothing to prove that their religion has any rational basis "
After reading this and earlier sections I soon realised that the thorns had definitely sprang up and choked him! This now brings me on to your next point which i will tie up with the points that this guy made.

Corky Wrote:Perhaps you didn't know that I am an ex-christadelphian? I know what CDs believe about being "in the truth" and all that rot. I even still have a copy of the old "Christendom Astray" by Robert Roberts - the one with the chapter in it that has since been removed because of it being such an embarrassment to you more recent believers in John Thomas's theories.

Perhaps you were a Christadelphian but i'm not truly convinced going on the attitude you have. What is your name please and which meeting or meetings did you use to attend?
So Christadelphians say about being "in the truth" - 'So what? It's just a phrase they use because they believe that the truth has been revealed in the Bible. You atheists believe that evolution is your truth. It's this sort of thing that makes me think that you are a complete phoney or you had a really bad experience at the place where you use to attend. Either way makes no difference.

Corky Wrote:I even still have a copy of the old "Christendom Astray" by Robert Roberts - the one with the chapter in it that has since been removed because of it being such an embarrassment to you more recent believers in John Thomas's theories.

Not that it matters as will be explained next but which chapter are you talking about? I'm guessing the one that he predicted about the date of the return of Christ but you may enlighten me - I very much doubt that!!
Robert Roberts formed the wonderful Bible planner so that the Old testament would be read once a year and the new testament twice a year. He also formed booklets on the commandments of Christ. Like John Thomas they were brilliant scholars but what you say doesn't matter and inch as will be explained next.

Corky Wrote:What you don't know is that all of the ideas of the founder, John Thomas, came from John Epps. I would advise that you give this article in Wikipedia a good read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Epps

In the days of these guys there was a great deal of discussion and exchanging of ideas as there was great interest in the Bible and it's relationship to received church teaching. I've heard of John Thomas copying ideas from Ellicott or vice versa. Maybe John Thomas copied ideas from John Epps or vice versa. Do you see what I'm getting at, makes absolutely no difference whatsoever. All of these people knew about the very important gospel message taught in the Bible.
What they did teach that true Bible study was paramount and that once studied the gospel message can be easily understood. I can only imagine that their enthusiasm at times ran away with them in predicting prophecies like the return of Jesus Christ. Bible students today should know about Matthew 24:36

36 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
What these guys did show that the orthodox teaching in the churches was nothing like what was being taught in the Bible.

Your points are a desperate attempt to demean a religion based on true study of the scriptures that is a continuation of learning. We never stop learning remember. It's the gospel message that has not changed!

Corky Wrote:You could see the evidence for evolution if you would look at it instead of living in denial. When genetics proved, just a few years ago, the common descent of all living things on the planet - that was the final nail in the coffin of creationism and evolution is now even accepted by the more enlightened of Christadelphians.

It depends how you define evolution. Darwins theory only deals with macro evolution as you should know. So yes religious people accept this because our life is full of diversity. This does not explain life itself. As mentioned, there is so much more study within the micro world and this is where evolution as you atheists think of it, is failing catastrophically!!

I urge all the readers to look back to the beginning of this debate and read through to this point and you will notice that i have brought much to the discussion while Corky has brought nothing apart from directing me to the "Talk Origins" evolution website. Cop out!!

Corky Wrote:As far as "the debate" - there is no debate, the theory of evolution is a proven scientific fact and has been for quite a while.

So you mention, yet it is not! You should know that nothing is proven in science. It's held as the best theory until a new hypothesis explains it better.
Macro Evolution accounts for one tiny bit of science and this is all atheists really have to base their whole meaning of life on! I will say to you that you can remain in ignorance but it's totally up to you!

To finish off with the prophecy that i started with. It's Biblical prophecy that anyone can quickly understand. John Thomas and/or whoever in those days found it out because they studied their Bibles that's all!

Because you don't seem to read my posts in depth or my addresses i will add this for you to read. Don't worry i don't mind being your tutor even though you refuse to be mine!!

Consider, for instance, these predictions through the prophet Jeremiah, delivered nearly 600 years before Christ:

• "For, lo, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah... and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it" (30v3)

• "Now therefore thus saith the Lord, the God of Israel... Behold, I will gather them out of all the countries, whither I have driven them, in mine anger... and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely: and they shall be my people and I will be their God..." (32v36-38)

• "I will cause the captivity of Judah and the captivity of Israel to return, and will build them as at the first. And I will cleanse them from all their iniquity..." (33v7)

There are many sites explaining this prophecy but this is a nice one to start with as mentioned before.
http://www.bibletruth.org.au/prophecy/israel.php
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08-05-2011, 08:45 PM (This post was last modified: 08-05-2011 08:56 PM by Corky.)
Post: #17
RE: Proof ...Definition
(08-05-2011 03:54 PM)fxmikey Wrote:  
Corky Wrote:Perhaps you didn't know that I am an ex-christadelphian? I know what CDs believe about being "in the truth" and all that rot. I even still have a copy of the old "Christendom Astray" by Robert Roberts - the one with the chapter in it that has since been removed because of it being such an embarrassment to you more recent believers in John Thomas's theories.

Perhaps you were a Christadelphian but i'm not truly convinced going on the attitude you have. What is your name please and which meeting or meetings did you use to attend?
You want me to put my name on a public forum on the Internet? Do you want my Social Security number too? Trust me, Corky has been my name ever since I was born. I attended the Conway ecclesia - that's in Conway, Arkansas, USA. It's just across the street from the Conway Regional Hospital's spare parking lot. Say hello to my ol' buddy Tommy Azbil - if he's stupid enough to still be there. Check your Google satellite map and zoom in on the location:
Christadelphian Chapel - (501) 329-3326
444 Augusta
Conway, AR 72032





(08-05-2011 03:54 PM)fxmikey Wrote:  
Corky Wrote:I even still have a copy of the old "Christendom Astray" by Robert Roberts - the one with the chapter in it that has since been removed because of it being such an embarrassment to you more recent believers in John Thomas's theories.

Not that it matters as will be explained next but which chapter are you talking about? I'm guessing the one that he predicted about the date of the return of Christ but you may enlighten me - I very much doubt that!!
If you don't know, maybe you should be finding out about it, hmmmm?

I be back and answer some of this other stupid stuff later. I don't feel much like writing a book tonight.

Faith is disdain for evidence, dismissal of reason, denial of logic, rejection of reality, contempt for truth.
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08-06-2011, 02:49 AM
Post: #18
RE: Proof ...Definition
Yes i will be interested to actually read something worthwhile reading. As said all you have done is direct me to talk origins site. Looking forward to this so called book you're going to write as well! Wink
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08-06-2011, 10:46 AM (This post was last modified: 08-06-2011 11:02 AM by Corky.)
Post: #19
RE: Proof ...Definition
(08-06-2011 02:49 AM)fxmikey Wrote:  Yes i will be interested to actually read something worthwhile reading. As said all you have done is direct me to talk origins site. Looking forward to this so called book you're going to write as well! Wink
That one link to creationist claims should have kept you busy for a while but you didn't bother to read any of those articles, did you? I could copy/paste some stuff like you did but that would be copyright infringement. So, you will have to either read those articles or not. The only way that you will be able to intelligently discuss evolution is to read up on evolution. You should know that evolution is both fact and theory. That evolution happened is a scientific fact, the exact mechanisms of how it happened is theory - real theories, based on real facts and not just wild guesses.

I directed you to the Talk Origins website because it's the best and easiest to read and understand without having to buy a bunch of expensive books. However, if you insist on not even reading about evolution, there's nothing to discuss and you can go ahead and just make up stuff like the creationist websites do and remain in ignorance and denial, or do some reading, it's totally up to you.

Do you at least understand why there was no worldwide flood 4200 years ago?

Do you understand the difference between Judaism and Zionism? That there are more Jews in New York City than in the state of Israel? Do you know why Jews refuse to return to Palestine and prefer to remain in "gentile" countries?


(08-05-2011 03:54 PM)fxmikey Wrote:  
Corky Wrote:If you want to understand it better, ex-christadelphian, John Bedson, explains it better than I do.
http://ex-christadelphian.blogspot.com/2...phecy.html

I printed this off and read through it a couple of times.
First of all I want to mention that this sort of information is scraping the barrel to try and refute the fact of Bible Prophecy of the Jews returning to their land and setting up the state of Israel. I will show you that it adds absolutely nothing to the prophecy I mentioned. I will try and be as brief as I can.

1/ I think the guy obviously has a serious hang up about his life as a Christadelphian, thus the Christian life in general. This happens in all walks of life. The cares of this world take over again which was something that happened to myself but thank God that he has brought me back to a way of life that has hope and meaning. There is a verse for this:
The Parable of the sower - Matthew 13 v 3-9

2/ The guy seems to have a serious hang up about John Thomas (as do you!), there seems to be a deep seated bitterness about him, I can almost see the fire pouring out of his nostrils. The only reason that I can think of as to why such hatred is that he detests the Christian life now because life is too attractive and he has to find a way of belittling the great man that studied the Bible for what it is and set the ball rolling for true Christian study!

3/ The guy contradicts himself - He mentions that John Thomas performed a Tommy Cooper trick in that he was lucky and got this one prophecy right. Then he goes on to say that NO! he didn't really get this prophecy right. He then mentions that he got part of it right and finally mentions that John Thomas got lucky with this prophecy in getting in right. He also mentions that this great prophecy was pure coincidence.
Just follow that and you can see that this guy is talking absolute nonsense!

This is what he says near the end:
"He once got lucky; but it is time that we realised that the Christadelphians have nothing to prove that their religion has any rational basis "
After reading this and earlier sections I soon realised that the thorns had definitely sprang up and choked him! This now brings me on to your next point which i will tie up with the points that this guy made.
The simplest thing to do would be to email John Bedson and discuss this issue with him. His email address is at the bottom of the article but for your convenience it is: bedson@pacific.net.au

Faith is disdain for evidence, dismissal of reason, denial of logic, rejection of reality, contempt for truth.
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08-06-2011, 12:58 PM
Post: #20
RE: Proof ...Definition
Corky Wrote:That one link to creationist claims should have kept you busy for a while but you didn't bother to read any of those articles, did you?


Corky Wrote:I directed you to the Talk Origins website because it's the best and easiest to read and understand without having to buy a bunch of expensive books. However, if you insist on not even reading about evolution, there's nothing to discuss and you can go ahead and just make up stuff like the creationist websites do and remain in ignorance and denial, or do some reading, it's totally up to you.

Corky Wrote:oh, I'm sorry, I keep forgetting that you never studied biology in high school...

It seems that this is a general method of yours. Again i will repeat - You know nothing of my education, what i have read or studied or what i am reading or studying at present!!

I have given you much information to chew on and read and rebut if you will. I have talked about Science, current scientific thinking, The Bible and Science and how it links together. Design in nature etc. You have come back with nothing but insults and a few web sites to look at. I have looked at these, yet you accuse me of not reading them even though you have not commented on most of the information i have provided!!

Corky Wrote:You should know that evolution is both fact and theory. That evolution happened is a scientific fact, the exact mechanisms of how it happened is theory - real theories, based on real facts and not just wild guesses.

The fact of evolution. How many times have i heard this, well pretty much all the time with atheists since this is their whole belief. I can understand why you would defend this to the bitter end. Well from my point of view:

1/ There is no fact in evolution to account for the great number of species on our planet. There is only the theory that accounts for the diversity of species that we see and how they adapt to their environment.
2/ Evolution does not account for life itself as mentioned
3/ Evolution does not account for the origin of the Universe


I have read nothing in Evolution to answer any of these important questions above!

Corky Wrote:Do you at least understand why there was no worldwide flood 4200 years ago? Do you understand the difference between Judaism and Zionism? That there are more Jews in New York City than in the state of Israel? Do you know why Jews refuse to return to Palestine and prefer to remain in "gentile" countries?

You have brought up these questions/accusations so hit me with it. I would like to actually hear something from you instead of a continuation of Insults.

I cannot think that you were a true Christian that studied his Bible and which loved his maker and had the love of Jesus in his life. Either something bad has happened that is private to you, or the cares of this world took a strangle hold on you so much you felt you had to make it your mission to ridicule anyone with a belief in Bible study. (You should well know that is what the Christadelphians are about - The love of Christ and continually studying and learning from the Bible and willing to spread the gospel message and help people understand it whenever they are able)

Without sounding disrespectful or rude i honestly thought you were perhaps in your twenties, early thirties with a serious attitude. Now that you've added your picture it reinforces my thinking that you seem bitter about something that happened in your so called Christian life.

If time allows i intended to contact John Bedson. I wanted to make my point to you that what he said did not disagree with the prophecy of the state of Israel and so couldn't understand why you bothered to add it.

Corky Wrote:Faith is disdain for evidence, dismissal of reason, denial of logic, rejection of reality, contempt for truth.

You have faith but just like any atheist, you won't admit it. You have faith in evolution to account for all the species on our planet, you have faith in either a multi verse, dark energy, gravity, M-theory etc. You have faith that an Intelligent designer did not create the things of our universe even though they appear to be designed. You have faith in yourself even though according to your theory, you are nothing more than a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. You have faith that Jesus will not return to this Earth to set up God's Kingdom. You have faith in certain scientists yet you don't have faith in others. You have faith that your mind is logical when some are not.

So the believers’ position is no less than the atheists' in an attempt to grapple with the facts, to make sense of the data, to illuminate rationally the world we live in. Faith is not a substitute for reason; faith only kicks in when reason comes to an end.

Ultimately everybody requires faith!
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