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Pagan Origins of Christianity .....
08-24-2011, 01:41 PM
Post: #1
Pagan Origins of Christianity .....




Horus, Attis, Mithra, Krishna, Dionysus and Jesus… spot the difference.





Who dares to deny the similarities between Christianity and those pagan religions that predate Christianity.
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08-26-2011, 02:21 AM
Post: #2
RE: Pagan Origins of Christianity .....
Yah, it's obvious that most all religions in that area build upon each other, and try to full fill ancient predictions. However I can never seem to get believers to see it or admit it. They aren't minor similarities either, they are precise details that appear again and again in religions of that time.

Here are a few similarities to the Jesus story:

Krishna:
Virgin birth
Son of God
Carpenter
Sent from heaven to earth in the form of a man
Visited at birth by wise men and shepherds, guided by a star
Parents had to flee to protect him
Went into the wilderness to fast
Baptized in a river
Sin free
Performed miracles
Raised the dead
Cast out demons
Resurrected
Ascended into heaven
Referred to as the shepherd of God, the lion, Lord of Lords, the Redeemer, Alpha and Omega
Second person (or item) in the Trinity
Said he was the way to the father
He is to return to do battle with the "Prince of Evil," who will desolate the earth

Mithra:
Virgin birth
Son of God
Carpenter
Sent from heaven to earth in the form of a man
Visited at birth by wise men and shepherds, guided by a star
Given gold, frankincense and myrrh
Born on December 25th
Died on a Cross
Put in a rock tomb
Went into the wilderness to fast
Sin free
Performed miracles
Raised the dead
Cast out demons
Resurrected on the 3rd day
Ascended into heaven
Referred to as the truth, the light, the lamb, the savior, the messiah, the good shepherd, the lion
Had 12 companions or disciples
Celebrated on the date we now call Easter

Dionysus (Osiris Dionysus)
God was his father
Born in a cave that housed farm animals
Virgin birth
His birth was prophesized by a star in the heavens
Converted water into wine
His followers were born-again through baptism in water
He rode triumphantly into a city on a donkey
He had 12 disciples
He was accused of licentious behavior
He was killed near the time of the Vernal Equinox, about MAR-21
He died "as a sacrifice for the sins of the world."
He was hung on a tree, stake, or cross
After death, he went into hell
On the third day after his death, he returned to life
The cave where he was laid was visited by three of his female followers
Ascended to heaven
Referred to as Savior of the world, Son of God
He and his father (God) are one
He will return in the last days and judge the human race
He died for our sins

Horus
Virgin birth
Father is God
Born on December 25th in a cave/manger, with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men
He was a child teacher in the Temple and was baptized when he was 30 years old
He was also baptized by "Anup the Baptizer," who becomes "John the Baptist"
He had 12 disciples
He performed miracles and raised one man, el-Azar-us, from the dead
He walked on water
He and his father (God) are one
He was transfigured on the Mount
He was crucified, buried in a tomb and resurrected
He was also the "Way, the Truth, the Light, the Messiah, God's Anointed Son, the Son of Man, the Good Shepherd, the Lamb of God, the Word" etc.
He was "the Fisher," and was associated with the Lamb, Lion and Fish
HE was called "the KRST," or "Anointed One,"

The list goes on and on.

Here is a short clip from Bill Maher's movie Religulous, where he points out these things. Bill is quite smug, and I'm sure there are a bunch of people that don't like him, but he speaks his mind and makes some good points.




My personal #1 reason that I don't like religion is because I like knowledge! And Religion suppresses knowledge; not just the knowledge unfortunately, but it suppresses the entire drive to understand.
http://www.EvilTheists.com
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09-02-2011, 09:29 AM (This post was last modified: 09-02-2011 09:33 AM by Piranhapoodle.)
Post: #3
RE: Pagan Origins of Christianity .....
I don't have any books on the history of these figures, but I checked Wikipedia on Krishna and on Hinduism for starters. I guess the wiki pages should note the more important facts about Krishna's life, and if there are errors in there, many Hindu's would probably object and set it straight.

Krishna:
First off, the main source for Krishna's life is the Bhāgavata Purāṇa. "Scholarly consensus holds that the text was completed no later than around 1000 CE (= AD)". Thus long after the oldest written sources of Jesus' life. According to the article, Krishna was a prankster, a prince and quite an adept strategist, tricking people into getting killed. He also married 16,108 wifes, many of them to save their honour... how sweet.

Virgin birth Not true: eighth son.
Son of God Partly true: avatar of Vishnu, who is neither the highest nor the creator and was incarnated in more avatars.
Carpenter Not true: Cow herder in youth, prince after he overthrew and killed his uncle.
Sent from heaven to earth in the form of a man Not true, did not exist as Krishna before birth.
Visited at birth by wise men and shepherds, guided by a star Can't find anything on this in the articles. Born in prison, so there seemed to be no opportunity for this.
Parents had to flee to protect him Not true, they send him to foster parents.
Went into the wilderness to fast Meditated in a forest later in his life (instead of before his service like Jesus). Cannot find anything on fasting.
Baptized in a river Can't find anything on this
Sin free Not true, is sometimes depicted as prankster. Stories on his childhood tell about (...) his mischievous pranks as Makhan Chor (butter thief).
Performed miracles True.
Raised the dead Can't find anything on this
Cast out demons Fought demons, cannot find anything about possessed people.
Resurrected Can't find anything on this
Ascended into heaven Only his spirit (like all other enlightened people do in Hinduism), his body was cremated after he was accidentally killed by a hunter.
Referred to as the shepherd of God, the lion, Lord of Lords, the Redeemer, Alpha and Omega He has a list of 108 names, I'm sure some will have similarities with these.
Second person (or item) in the Trinity Partly true, incarnated from Vishnu, doesn't mean he IS Vishnu I guess.
Said he was the way to the father Cant' find this but find it really unlikely, as he wasn't so much a preacher and he didn't address God as father.
He is to return to do battle with the "Prince of Evil," who will desolate the earth Can't find anything on this. He does return once every many billion years or so.

So the similarities are either not striking because both religions are about the aspect of incarnation of God, they are simply not true or they are not mentioned in the wikipedia article despite being quite important. Similarities lists like these come from the work of Kersey Graves (1813-1883), a skeptic, atheist, spiritualist, Nontheist Friend . (Hmm I'm sure he didn't have an axe to grind.) His article further reads: modern scholarship has cast serious doubt on the veracity of such claims, and demonstrated that Graves' scholarship is deficient. Graves massaged his data to fit his thesis, and where he had no data he falsified it. (...) Historian Richard Carrier, a proponent of the Jesus myth hypothesis, has heavily criticized Graves' work, particularly his book The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors, as being unreliable and unscholarly.
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09-02-2011, 10:12 AM
Post: #4
RE: Pagan Origins of Christianity .....
What about the others then?

Mithras, Horus...etc.

Before or after each other isn't the point , most scholars agree that religions borrow from each other when they are developing .
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09-03-2011, 02:39 AM (This post was last modified: 09-03-2011 02:44 AM by Piranhapoodle.)
Post: #5
RE: Pagan Origins of Christianity .....
(09-02-2011 10:12 AM)Martinuk Wrote:  What about the others then?

Mithras, Horus...etc.

Before or after each other isn't the point , most scholars agree that religions borrow from each other when they are developing .

If you're saying that Christianity developed from another source, then that other source should at least be older than Christianity.
I agree with you about many religions borrowing from each other, especially in Antiquity, with Romans, Greeks and Egyptians swapping out deities. However, the Jews (and later the Christians) didn't want to take part in it, which was actually the reason of the tensions, rebellions and persecution. Further, if a religion develops, the people are likely to use the language of the time to describe their god and their religious concepts. It doesn't necessarily mean that one is developed from the other.

I'll look into Mithras later perhaps, because it seems the most likely. But I'm sure you can also see the psychology behind these kind of list. It's controversial so people are loving it, see also the Da Vinci Code. Publish a book like this and you're in. What really bothers me is that even National Geographic loves to pose this kind of stuff as serious, ending the episode with a lingering "we'll never know".
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09-03-2011, 04:05 AM (This post was last modified: 09-03-2011 04:18 AM by Piranhapoodle.)
Post: #6
RE: Pagan Origins of Christianity .....
So I checked wikipedia for Mithras. There is even an article on similarities with Christianity.

Mithras (this seems to be about the Roman Mithras, because this Mithraism was Chrisianity's main competitor. May look into the others later, although these seem to have little to do with the Roman Mithras.)
Virgin birth Not true, born as a youth or adult from a rock. Unless the rock counts as a virgin.
Son of God The article doesn't mention Mithras having a family or father, just that he was born from a rock.
Carpenter Not mentioned, he doesn't seem to have anything to do with carpentry.
Sent from heaven to earth in the form of a man No, born from a rock.
Visited at birth by wise men and shepherds, guided by a star not mentioned
Given gold, frankincense and myrrh not mentioned.
Born on December 25th Wiki: "the Mithraic Mysteries had no public ceremonies of its own. The festival of natalis Invicti [Birth of the Unconquerable (Sun)], held on 25 December, was a general festival of the Sun, and by no means specific to the Mysteries of Mithras." The celebration of the birthday of Jesus was only later set on 25 december, the winter solstice. It's not mentioned in the bible.
Died on a Cross Not mentioned. There was a symbol of a diagonal cross in a circle in Roman Mithraism.
Put in a rock tomb Not mentioned. He doesn't seem to have led a real life and died.
Went into the wilderness to fast Not mentioned.
Sin free He was probably good, as he was a god.
Performed miracles Yes, he probably had supernatural powers, as he was a god.
Raised the dead Not mentioned.
Cast out demons Not mentioned having anything to do with demons or possessed. The Zoroastrian Mithra did escort souls to heaven or to hell.
Resurrected on the 3rd day Not mentioned having died at all.
Ascended into heaven Not mentioned
Referred to as the truth, the light, the lamb, the savior, the messiah, the good shepherd, the lion Not mentioned, there are figures found of a lionheaded person but this is not Mithras.
Had 12 companions or disciples Not mentioned. He was depicted surrounded by 12 zodiac signs though.
Celebrated on the date we now call Easter "the Mithraic Mysteries had no public ceremonies of its own."

I guess we can say that this Mithras.... wait for it.... is busted. (dum dum tsh)

ps. Wow, many of these claims are still mentioned in the Dutch wikipedia while their value is left in the middle. Typical.
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09-03-2011, 02:09 PM
Post: #7
RE: Pagan Origins of Christianity .....
(09-03-2011 02:39 AM)Piranhapoodle Wrote:  If you're saying that Christianity developed from another source, then that other source should at least be older than Christianity.

I don't have a bias towards Christianity or any other religion . As each religion evolves it borrows and adapts from other religious beliefs and rituals . Whether it's Christianity borrowing from Paganism or other religions borrowing from Christianity . I think what you said above is stating the obvious a bit .

What are your own thoughts on the origins of Sunday worship , Easter and Christmas .

This isn't something new the First Council of Nicaea was an example of Christians deciding to adopt the adapted beliefs into their own religion.

Have you ever heard of Lord Raglan's Scale, this draws other interesting parallels.

Lord Raglan, in THE HERO (1936) has classified the parallel life-patterns of the mythical hero of tradition into twenty-two archetypal incidents, as noted below. The higher a particular hero scores, the closer he is to the UR-archetype of the sacred hero-king of prehistoric religious ritual; a historical hero is likely to share rather few of the mythical characteristics.


LORD RAGLANS SCALE

1 The hero's mother is a royal virgin
2 His father is a king and
3 often a near relative of the mother, but
4 the circumstances of his conception are unusual, and
5 he is also reputed to be the son of a god
6 at birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or maternal grandfather, to kill him, but
7 He is spirited away, and
8 Reared by foster-parents in a far country
9 We are told nothing of his childhood, but
10 On reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future kingdom.
11 After a victory over the king and or giant, dragon, or wild beast
12 He marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor and
13 becomes king
14 For a time he reigns uneventfully and
15 Prescribes laws but
16 later loses favor with the gods and or his people and
17 Is driven from from the throne and the city after which
18 He meets with a mysterious death
19 often at the top of a hill.
20 his children, if any, do not succeed him.
21 his body is not buried, but nevertheless
22 he has one or more holy sepulchres.

Undoubtedly historical personages always score lower than six, although Alexander the Great might be said to exceed that figure with a possible score of seven, depending on how one interprets some aspects of his life history. Here is how some other people you might have heard of scored.

How Some Heros Scored
Oedipus scores 21
Theseus scores 20
Moses scores 20
Dionysus scores 19
Jesus scores 19
Romulus scores 18
Perseus scores 18
Hercules scores 17
Llew Llaw Gyffes scores 17
Bellerophon scores 16
Jason scores 15
Mwindo scores 14
Robin Hood scores 13
Pelops scores 13
Apollo scores 11
Sigurd scores 11.

How Lord Raglan Interpreted the score of The Hero

If the Hero scored less than six:
This means that the Hero may be a historical figure since historical figures do not conform closely to the UR-Archetype. This is not definite proof that the person existed, since most cartoon characters score fairly low. For those who are known to have existed, there are two ways that this score may still increase over time.
If the Hero is still alive, the Hero may gain as many as five more points before death, as the archetypical story focuses largely on the birth and death of the figure. For the previously mentioned reasons this is, however, fairly unlikely.
If the story of the Hero is passed along largely by oral tradition, the story may be altered over time to conform more closely to the archetype. Stories about historical figures are often altered in this way, while those that are written down are largely 'frozen' in whatever form they are recorded.
If the Hero scored more than six:
This means that the Hero most likely does not closely represent a historical figure, as it is unusual for a historical personage to score above six. This does not mean that the Hero is entirely fictitious, but does indicate that many aspects of the life of the Hero have either been lost or replaced by those of the archetype.
Why do the stories of heroes get altered to conform to the archetype?
There is a human desire to make the hero into a larger than life figure, and to shroud the various aspects of their life in meaning. Since chances are, in a society that passes stories along by oral tradition, there is a value placed on the creativity of a story teller, otherwise mundane aspects of life are likely to be embellished, especially if the true details of that aspect of a life have been lost.
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