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I am a Christadelphian
06-08-2011, 04:04 AM
Post: #1
I am a Christadelphian
Where will you find a book that will cover all aspects of history and human behaviour while at the same time demonstrating
a continuing development and plan for the future. You will not find one.

The Bible is written to convey God's thoughts and intentions for all generations. It is written in such a way that every generation can understand it. No matter what historical or scientific development has come into being the Bible continues to be relevant.

Why is our blood red? only the Bible will tell us. Why do our bodies extract the requisite nutrients from our food and turn the rest into corruption? Only the Bible will tell us. Why must we die? Only the Bible will tell us.

I continue to marvel at the design of Scripture, especially Genesis which has been fitly called 'the seedbox of the Bible.' Everything else grows out of Genesis.

Books have been written about the Bible showing how it was very much ahead of its time in matters medical and scientific. All washing was to be done in running (Hebrew living) water, but it is only just over 100 years ago that running water was considered essential because of germs in stagnant water.

Job 26:7 states that 'the earth hangs on nothing' but nobody in the ancient world knew that the earth was a sphere hanging in space, so how did Job know.

Isaiah 40:22 speaks of the heavens being spread out, yet it had only recently been discovered that we are in an expanding universe. Jeremiah 33:22 says that the stars are countless yet it was some 2,000 years later before science found that out.

1 Corinthians 15:39 speaks of man and creatures having different kinds of flesh. Yet it was not until modern times that science discovered the distinctiion between human cells and those of other creatures. How did Paul know?

It should be pointed out that Scripture is not a scientific textbook. It is a book of redemption dealing with the purpose of God, but when it does mention scientific matters, it has never been proved wrong.

A quick look at prophecy. Luke 21 is the classic. In verse 24 Jesus speaks of Jerusalem being trodden down by the Gentiles until those times are fulfilled. This happened in 1967 when the Jews finally recaptured the old city. Look vv24/25 and i must stress v 29, "Behold the fig tree and all the trees; when they now shoot forth ye see and know of your own selves that summer is near at hand." The fig tree is Israel that disappeared from the world map in AD70 and did not reappear until 1948. Has any other nation disappeared and reappeared like this? especially a nation whose name means "God rules"?

Jesus also says "..and all the trees" Other nations sprang into being in 1948 as more of them sought independence from the super powers that dominated them. India broke away from England, to be followed by the African states all breaking free from the Empire. Yet only 50 years before they were saying that the sun would never set on the British Empire!

Proof of the resurrection is our strongest point. We can look at that again. I hope that this helps. I will be attaching some anti-atheistic stuff in case you find it of interest.

P.S I am a Christadelphian. We are a body of believers that truly study the Bible. Most Christian faith believe in either going to heaven or hell when you die. Not Bible teaching. Most christian faiths believe in the Trinity (God was Jesus Christ also), so very wrong and not Bible teaching. Looking at the work and life of Sir Issac Newton, he also seems to have believed the same as us. That's because he truly studied the Bible.

I look forward to questions!
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06-08-2011, 09:21 AM (This post was last modified: 06-08-2011 09:23 AM by Garrett Fogerlie.)
Post: #2
RE: Prove God exists without using the bible or faith
I don't mean to be rude, but are you joking? I was expecting a punch line after all that, but I kinda get the feeling you are serious. So I'll answer and rebut some of what you said.

(06-08-2011 04:04 AM)fxmikey Wrote:  Where will you find a book that will cover all aspects of history and human behaviour while at the same time demonstrating
a continuing development and plan for the future. You will not find one.

Most any history book accomplishes this, and they are vastly more historically accurate than the bible. Not to mention they usually contain information about the history of many cultures from many more geographical locations, not just the history of one or two cultures in a very small geographic location.

(06-08-2011 04:04 AM)fxmikey Wrote:  The Bible is written to convey God's thoughts and intentions for all generations. It is written in such a way that every generation can understand it. No matter what historical or scientific development has come into being the Bible continues to be relevant.

If the bible was written in such a way that every generation could understand it, there wouldn't be these vastly contradictory ideas and interpretations of it. And as far as relevancy,

  1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are from neighboring nations.
  2. Exodus 21:7 sanctiones the selling of your daughter into slavery.
  3. 1 Corinthians 11:3 The head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man.
  4. Exodus 31:14 and 35:2 clearly states that anyone who works on the sabath should be put to death.
  5. Leviticus 20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death.

These don't seem to have any relevance to today's society, but that may just be me, I prefer to follow book that are cruelty free.

(06-08-2011 04:04 AM)fxmikey Wrote:  Why is our blood red? only the Bible will tell us. Why do our bodies extract the requisite nutrients from our food and turn the rest into corruption? Only the Bible will tell us. Why must we die? Only the Bible will tell us.

Our blood is red because our hemoglobin contains iron. The creatures that have blue blood have hemoglobin that use copper to bond oxygen. I don't think the bible tells us either of those. Our bodies extract nutrients from food and energy from air because we are alive, and life requires energy. According to Genesis, we die because Adam, a man, and Eve, the spawn for Adams rid, ate a forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge. It is peculiar that God would create a species capable of higher level thought and then condemn it for desiring knowledge; but thats just another reason I believe this book was created by men from the spoken word of other men!

(06-08-2011 04:04 AM)fxmikey Wrote:  Books have been written about the Bible showing how it was very much ahead of its time in matters medical and scientific. All washing was to be done in running (Hebrew living) water, but it is only just over 100 years ago that running water was considered essential because of germs in stagnant water.

The bible has next to no scientific information, and apart from not eating pork and some shell fish, it has no medical information either. Unless you consider coming back to life by touching a bone (2 Kings 13:20-21) to be medically relevant. Not drinking water that had dead animals in it (Leviticus 11:32-36) and not going to the bathroom where you live (Deuteronomy 23:12-13) were not unique to the bible, and ideas like this came way before the bible was written. Many of these ideas came long before humans could communicate. Your olfactory receptors, when they come in contact with rot and decay, make you want to vomit and not consume whatever that smell may be coming from.

(06-08-2011 04:04 AM)fxmikey Wrote:  Job 26:7 states that 'the earth hangs on nothing' but nobody in the ancient world knew that the earth was a sphere hanging in space, so how did Job know.

There is a better quote to use to make that point, it in Isaiah 40:22 "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth..." Never the less, the bible also says the earth is flat. But neither of those matter, there were three schools of though (that I'm familial with) in that time frame. The flat earth idea, the idea that the world was a bowl, and the spherical earth. In around 300 BC, Eratosthenes correctly calculated the circumference of the earth. As a side note, one of the things that delayed the realization that the sun is at the center, and earth circles it, was the thought that if earth was moving that fast then the wind would be incredible. But I don't wan't to veer too off topic.

(06-08-2011 04:04 AM)fxmikey Wrote:  Isaiah 40:22 speaks of the heavens being spread out, yet it had only recently been discovered that we are in an expanding universe.

To go from the heavens being spread out, to an expanding universe is an incredible leap, and I think the passage is just talking about the stars being placed where they are. My guess would be that the idea the stars were moving wouldn't have gone over well, since the constellations were well known and seemed to not move at all throughout many generations.

(06-08-2011 04:04 AM)fxmikey Wrote:  Jeremiah 33:22 says that the stars are countless yet it was some 2,000 years later before science found that out.

The stars are not countless, a fact you would know if you had looked to a science book for information about science. As a rough estimate, there are 10^22 to 10^24 stars.

(06-08-2011 04:04 AM)fxmikey Wrote:  Proof of the resurrection is our strongest point. We can look at that again. I hope that this helps. I will be attaching some anti-atheistic stuff in case you find it of interest.

When it comes to the resurrection of Jesus, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence! Far too many people were said to have resurrected in that time period. Resurrection was not limited to Jesus, God or even the Bible, it is a common part of all the mythology in that area and people would conjurer stories of resurrection to give their story credibility. The books of the bible that speak of Jesus' resurrection were written by his followers over a generation later, and vary greatly. Therefore, having no reliable or consistent witnesses, in anything like the time period needed to certify such an extraordinary claim, we are finally entitled to say that we have a right, if not an obligation, to respect ourselves enough to disbelieve the whole thing.

If you truly believe all that you have stated, you really should put the bible down and read a science book instead.

My personal #1 reason that I don't like religion is because I like knowledge! And Religion suppresses knowledge; not just the knowledge unfortunately, but it suppresses the entire drive to understand.
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06-19-2011, 04:37 AM
Post: #3
RE: I am a Christadelphian
fxmikey is this what you believe? I got it off a website.

Christadelphians hold to the following beliefs:

  1. There is no Trinity - Scriptures that Christians use to support the Trinity doctrine referring to Elohim are dismissed as only referring to angels. The angels they say, did the work of creation, because it was beneath God to engage in such a work.
  2. Jesus Christ is not God. They deny that Jesus existed in any form before he was born of Mary. In The Christadelphian', official journal of the church, No XI, from 1874 they say, "He (Jesus) was not God, neither a mere man, nor had he any existence prior to his supernatural birth". Again in Christendom Astray', page 1089 they say, "Jesus was a manifestation of the Father in man, begotten by the Spirit. He did not become the Christ until his water baptism; until then he simply had a body prepared for the divine manifestation that was to take place through him..."
  3. The Holy Spirit is not a person but a "...radiant visible power from the Father. It is an unseen power emanating from the Deity, filling all space, and by which God is everywhere present. It is the medium by which God created all things..." (Christadelphians by Lita Hutchins, page 7). Again, like Jehovah's Witnesses, they refer to the Holy Spirit as "it". So they have no Holy Spirit to assist them in their study and interpretation of the Scriptures!
  4. The devil does not exist! Roberts claimed that The Devil' where the term appears in the Bible is a synonym for the word "sin"'. This must make the devil and the kingdom of darkness rejoice! For satan to convince another that he doesn't even exist would have to be the ultimate deception!
  5. Personal immortality is rejected. They believe in the doctrine of soul sleep (as do the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Seventh-Day Adventists) and conditional immortality.
  6. Man is just a body - and not a body and soul
  7. The return of Jews to Israel and the establishing of the Nation of Israel is the key to the times in which we now live.
  8. The Kingdom of God will begin when Christ returns to the city of Jerusalem



Christadelphians believe that when Christ returns:

(a) The saints' (which is only the Christadelphians) will become immortal

(b) The wicked (all those who are not Christadelphians) will be destroyed

© The faithful Christadelphians will gather in Jerusalem. Only Christadelphians who have met the equired standards and the Jews have any hope of a resurrection and living in the kingdom that will be administered from Jerusalem.

(d) The Kingdom established then will last for 1,000 years, during which time there will be

(i) No hell

(ii) No torment of the body

(iii) No personal devils (or spiritual problems)

Salvation

For the Christadelphian salvation is a sequential process which is understood as follows:

(11) Gaining knowledge [of the Bible]

(12) Water Baptism [by total immersion in water]

(13) Moral rejuvenation

(14) A change of nature at Christ's return,

My personal #1 reason that I don't like religion is because I like knowledge! And Religion suppresses knowledge; not just the knowledge unfortunately, but it suppresses the entire drive to understand.
http://www.EvilTheists.com
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07-17-2011, 01:22 PM
Post: #4
RE: I am a Christadelphian
9 days and no reply from fxmikey, I think he's just a troll and has no intentions of engaging in a discussion.

Faith is disdain for evidence, dismissal of reason, denial of logic, rejection of reality, contempt for truth.
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07-17-2011, 01:33 PM
Post: #5
RE: I am a Christadelphian
(07-17-2011 01:22 PM)Corky Wrote:  9 days and no reply from fxmikey, I think he's just a troll and has no intentions of engaging in a discussion.

He tends to move from thread to thread , it would be nice to see some evidence for his beliefs ,outside his comfort zone.
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07-31-2011, 07:03 AM
Post: #6
RE: I am a Christadelphian
Only just realised about this thread. Time is limited and i have been debating many and not just this web site. I think i will give Corky a miss though, seems to have the brain of a 5 year old!

I will be adding to this soon.
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07-31-2011, 09:23 AM
Post: #7
RE: I am a Christadelphian
(07-31-2011 07:03 AM)fxmikey Wrote:  Only just realised about this thread. Time is limited and i have been debating many and not just this web site. I think i will give Corky a miss though, seems to have the brain of a 5 year old!

I will be adding to this soon.

I believe Corky was a Christadelphian with a great knowledge of your religion ,why would you feel uncomfortable debating with him ??
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08-02-2011, 01:26 AM
Post: #8
RE: I am a Christadelphian
I will debate anyone that wants a discussion conducted in grown up manner. Corky jumped in with rants and personal attacks and it seemed to be the language of a five year old. Examples are:

Corky Wrote:You know nothing about atheists either because atheism is not a "belief" - atheism is the lack of belief in gods and the supernatural. I'm sure you've heard that before and it's about time for you to grow up and know that's the way of it. In other words, atheists are just people who don't believe in your supernatural bullshit that you can't prove or show any evidence for.

Corky Wrote:So in other words, you are too lazy to do a little reading on evolution at the "Talk Origins" website and want me to personally explain evolution to you? Do I look like your personal tutor?

So even after I welcomed back Garrett Fogerlie and conducted my debate in an intellectual manner Corky jumped into this discussion and carried on with his usual manner!

Corky Wrote:The first trees were more like our pine and fir trees - oh, I'm sorry, I keep forgetting that you never studied biology in high school...

I find it extremely interesting and surprising that he was an X Christadeplphian! Interesting because if this is the case then we do have a debate! and surprising because it was not mentioned initially and although i know people that lose their belief including Christadelphians, i have not come across anyone that has conducted himself in such a childish manner. He seems to lack disrespect and is unable to conduct himself in an adult fashion.

So if indeed he is an X Christadelphian, maybe he would care to give me his name and which meeting he used to attend. I could easily find this out if it is true or not?
Atheists always want proof so i'm asking for it now?

Even if what he is saying is true, then we will be having an interesting debate. One which i am up for the challenge and looking forward to!
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08-03-2011, 12:34 AM
Post: #9
RE: I am a Christadelphian
(07-17-2011 01:22 PM)Corky Wrote:  9 days and no reply from fxmikey, I think he's just a troll and has no intentions of engaging in a discussion.

Looks like fxmikey is up for a discussion now Corky ...
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08-04-2011, 01:55 AM
Post: #10
RE: I am a Christadelphian
Most definitely! As said just because i don't come on here for say 9 days doesn't mean i don't intend to carry on with a debate. I have a full time job, i am doing my jazz saxophone grades, i read and study, i debate on twitter and many other commitments.

I will check more now because of the latest discussions. I will also get back to your post when i have time. I have many posts to get back to.

Anyway looking forward to hearing the evidence that he was a Christadelphian first off?
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